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Post by claired80 on Mar 19, 2011 11:57:46 GMT -5
I just re-watched "Orion in the sky" (I realized that I'm not remembering so much of the last few episodes of season 8, and thought it could be a good way to spend the afternoon ... ) It's probably been already discussed, here or elsewhere, though I don't remember reading about that exactly... The last words of Greene to Carter after giving him the basket ball are "you set the tone Carter" and then "work out your jump shot!" And how does Carter shoot while playing basketball with Gates in "And in the end"? Okay, maybe it's not so clear, but he manages what I think is a nice jump shot. Can be totally random, or they thought about it... (which would be a nice touch... ) Oh, yeah, I was surprised that you didn't see it. I should probably re-watch that one too . I mainly remember all the fuss around it in Paris, the pictures and videos by people going to see the filming... but I guess there are scenes that I don't remember so well
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Post by darksparrow on Mar 19, 2011 12:25:00 GMT -5
I'd be really surprised if they actually thought of that. It's probably us over-analyzing things to bits as usual. But then again, that part of the finale- at least Carter shooting ball in the ambulance bay- could have been conceived & written as far back as season 8, for all we know, and that would explain it, maybe. Season 15 did a lot of mirroring. the thing with Kem's Carter's socks makes me think there were more subtle references in that final season than we may think. And while we're on the subject of mirroring: Another thing that I noticed while watching "Carter Est Amoureux" (yeah, that's still depressing): Abby's "it's a good thing you're doing here, John." reminded me of Susan's "you did a good thing here, John." in the finale. It's mostly the use of his first name that throws me off every time, but really, why do his ex girlfriends keep telling him what a good thing he's done in the exact same words, in the exact same context? I saw the last part, with the hospital and Kem's mom, and the ending, but I managed to miss the beginning of the episode, including all the Michele drama. Anyway I flipped through the episode now to get the Abby quote and there are some really good moments there. The scene where they're having breakfast, drinking to "associate professor Carter" and then seeing the adorable little girl is just so heartbreaking I just couldn't watch it again.
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Post by claired80 on Mar 19, 2011 14:27:41 GMT -5
And while we're on the subject of mirroring: Another thing that I noticed while watching "Carter Est Amoureux" (yeah, that's still depressing): Abby's "it's a good thing you're doing here, John." reminded me of Susan's "you did a good thing here, John." in the finale. It's mostly the use of his first name that throws me off every time, but really, why do his ex girlfriends keep telling him what a good thing he's done in the exact same words, in the exact same context? Hmm... it's Weaver telling him that in the finale, not Susan... But yeah, they are using mirroring in important episodes. And that's a really nice touch, a nice reward for faithful fans... I don't know how long they took to think about things like that, but I really like the fact that they worked on it at all, for something probably less than 5% of the viewers would get. Even the most obvious "you set the tone", what's actually the percent of viewers who noticed it? And they are things a lot more subtle, for which even we -as die-hard fans- are not sure about... I'd really love to know whether it's us overanalyzing or really things on purpose.
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Post by darksparrow on Mar 20, 2011 12:37:07 GMT -5
You're right, of course, and I'm going to take that as a sign that I have to watch that episode again. That was a little TOO obvious, but yeah, I know what you mean. The whole concept of 'bringing back the old cast and vibe' was touching, and at that point, most of the viewers wouldn't get the references anyway, so it was a nice way to honor the old-timers that gave the show its great success. and considering the nostalgic feel of the episodes, and the efforts they went through to bring back the old characters and mention old storylines- I don't think we're imagining it at all. Maybe, like, 80% of it. at least in the finale it's clear that they were going for obvious mirroring, but they're doing it throughout the entire season, as well. It's Carter's socks that keep coming up in my mind, you see. I'd say it's us obsessing over things if they had a shot of Carter wearing Kem's socks, but hadn't mentioned it. As it was, with the shot focused on the socks, I'm convinced that it was done on purpose. if they could be subtle enough for that, who knows what else they came up with... (No, I will not use this discussion as an excuse to watch season 15 looking for 'clues'. Must... Do... Work.... ugh.)
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Post by claired80 on Mar 21, 2011 7:56:54 GMT -5
My first idea was that the socks were totally random. Just a way to start the conversation between Peter and Carter... Something like "Oh my God! What are you doing here!? Why are you on this hospital bed? What is wrong with you!? " would have been so not ER and so not Benton-like. Starting with "you look ridiculous, Carter" fits so much better... It could even have been something improvised, not even in the script: Noah actually having cold feet while waiting on the bed in between filming, putting on his socks and Wells found it funny and decided to include the socks. And it wouldn't be so far fetched to imagine those socks actually belong to Noah... they just have something uncommon enough to be his But I re-watched "Touch and Go" last night (I needed an excuse too ...) and I actually didn't remember the socks were so "important", with the scene where Kem takes them off from Carter's feet directly while he stands in the kitchen to go slide in the corridor. So now I don't know anymore if it could have been really just random, or if the socks are actually a symbol of old times, when Kem was happy and able to have fun like a kid. Okay, now I should really work and not spend time analyzing the role of a pair of socks in a tv show.
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Post by darksparrow on Mar 21, 2011 11:37:29 GMT -5
I know it's very unlikely (and I'm willing to take the chance that I'm wrong), but I want to believe that it was a planned thing. Of course everything you said is right- it could be an impromptu decision on the set, and sure, they could be Noah's socks, but to quote a certain TV show, " I want to believe". Speaking of season 11 and still on the topic of being bothered by Carter Est Amoureux: I didn't watch seasons 12-15, so I don't really know if it was talked about at all, but wasn't the Carter center supposed to open in season 12? I mean, even with Carter in Africa, the construction would go on as planned, so how did 'a year from september' turn into four years? Or was it just something that they never bothered to talk about, like whatever happened between Carter leaving for Africa to be with Kem to Carter in Sudan and Kem somewhere in Paris again...? I don't like these holes in the storyline. they make me think I may have missed stuff when in actuality I know I didn't. They just never bothered to fill these holes. Maybe another dozen episodes between season 12 and 15 could do the trick... Awww but this is so much more fun!
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Post by claired80 on Mar 21, 2011 13:26:00 GMT -5
Seasons 12 to 15 are basically just "Carter on hold"... It's the same "Kem is visiting her mom in Paris" for 4 years, the same Carter Center under construction. I guess nobody gave it any more thought. Though I loved the Darfur episodes in season 12, they weren't there to make Carter's storyline evolve. They were really just there to talk about Darfur (which was a good enough reason).
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Post by claired80 on Apr 14, 2011 15:34:34 GMT -5
I'm taking the conversation about season 6 started in the introduction thread here ... So, about May Day, I always had a sort of problem with this episode. I find it awesome, well written, and Noah's acting is amazing, but I always quite have to 'push' myself to watch it ... There's something making me uncomfortable. The first time I saw it, I didn't expect the addiction. And I didn't like that Carter had become an addict . The intervention felt to me like they were really trapping Carter, not helping him, and that they were indeed judging him, as he points it out himself. This is probably a sign that the episode, and the ones before that led to it, are amazingly written! As Kerry says, "he showed all the signs", and yet I didn't see a thing. While when you re-watch, yeah, it's indeed all there! It's so well written that it's very easy to put yourself in Kerry's and Mark's heads, to see how much Carter is lying and fooling himself, and everybody else, and that they have to do something quickly, but at the same time it's also very easy to see Carter's point of view, feeling that the all thing is unfair, that the reactions from Mark and Kerry are too extreme and too quick. And Noah is fantastic in it. I re-watched the episode about a month ago, and the scene with Mark in the ambulance bay, when he is smoking, really struck me as amazing acting. The look on his face after he said he had to take more pills "just to function", then realizing what he just admitted... He looks so conflicted in the whole scene, kinda realizing he needs help, kinda trying to justify his behavior, starting to explain his pain, but closing up right after... It's really not at all a black and white situation. It's a very conflicted complicated situation, and to show this so well, well, you just need a very brilliant actor who can stay on this tiny thread... He is really perfect all along. It's interesting that two seasons after Carter said to a patient "I know what it's like to need help when you least want it". That's exactly what he is showing in May Day.
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Post by darksparrow on Apr 15, 2011 10:33:06 GMT -5
Awww, you guys are making me wish I had the season 6 dvd here, reading this, because I suddenly feel the need to rewatch that episode. I know exactly what you mean when you say fine acting- I've never been able to see these scenes and NOT feel almost physical pain. I can't help but relate to miserable Carter, having struggled quite a bit with depression, and it makes it easier for me to spot when that state of mind is not portrayed 100% right, and in this case, they nailed it so perfectly. The little grimaces, the sudden change in tone, the insomnia, the depression and the look of utter exhaustion (through half of the season!!!) are so disturbingly convincing. And I might be wrong, but that episode was shot on may 2000... and didn't Noah get married right around that exact time...? imagine shooting such intense scenes on ER while having all that wedding stuff going on! How do you turn off that joyous "I'm getting married!" state of mind to portray depression that accurately? it blows my mind. It's interesting that you should say that. I pretty much remember every line by now, but you know what, I've never tried to see it from Carter's side. From the moment Abby spotted that needle it was easy for me to say 'okay, there's a drug problem, something needs to be done'. Which is basically the Weaver/Greene approach. I doubt it's the same reaction that a coworker would have, or a friend, but it's a good reaction considering the circumstances. They had a narrowing window of opportunity to stop him from hurting himself further, and they were smart to take advantage of it. Knowing what we as the viewers know, it's easy to see that he needed IMMEDIATE help. What I never thought of was that the viewer knows more than Mark or Kerry suspect, because the viewer was exposed to some quite disturbing personal moments. So if they couldn't know how bad things really were for Carter, really, how COULD they go there? I could accept the drug use because I had all the information, but weren't they too quick to accept it, cosidering that it IS Carter and it sounds ridiculous at first? I can actually see how it would seem like they're jumping to conclusions, judging him and being altogether quite rash, especially with the whole intervention thing (in the same room where he was stabbed--- that was just cruel! no available rooms? Have it in the lounge or something)... So okay, they weren't very elegant in the way they treated it. There's more than enough reason for Carter to feel resentment and anger, the implications of which I wish we could have seen a bit more (to quote Eriq, "I still think there are things that need to be explored.") I think the closest we came to confronting that Carter was, in fact, a little upset with them was the interview in "Sand and Water". Then again, when you're trying to win your job back, you can't really afford to show your resentment. It's a crappy situation to be in, for sure. Oh, the missed opportunities...
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Post by claired80 on Apr 15, 2011 11:39:09 GMT -5
And I might be wrong, but that episode was shot on may 2000... and didn't Noah get married right around that exact time...? imagine shooting such intense scenes on ER while having all that wedding stuff going on! How do you turn off that joyous "I'm getting married!" state of mind to portray depression that accurately? it blows my mind. Yep, well, that's his job quite normal to not have our personal life influence your acting. And before that, he was rehearsing for Fail Safe probably right in the middle of shooting BSMH and following eps... Yep, that can be seen as really cruel, or as a way to tell him they know where it all started... And the full thing is too fast, they are reacting too fast. As far as what they know, the fentanyl could have been a one time thing. And that wouldn't make him an addict. Not a good behavior at all, but not something requiring rehab right away. Actually what was really their right to force him to go to rehab? Or fire him? All Carter would have had to do was get a lawyer and sue them. As Kerry said, they coudn't have proven a thing since he was on prescribed medication. When Kerry says "show us your wrists!", I thought "oh oh... " but seeing him rolling up his sleeves, I still had the idea that the fentanyl incident may have been a one time thing. And really, he couldn't have had all the track marks under his watch if he was shooting up regularly, could he? But it's a tv show, not real life. And many many things were done on a too short timeline . Three months of rehab? For how long was he really addicted? Less than 3 months for sure... Prescribed pain meds at first, starting taking a bit too much.. and then? Was there even enough time to get fully addicted? Quite random, about another wonderfully acted scene in May Day, in the lounge, when Kerry and Mark, with Abby around, are confronting him. Mark asks him if he is still on pain medication, and Carter looks puzzled, so that Mark has to add "for your back" (yeah, what else? ) Carter's reaction is really perfect. If it was normal that he's still under pain meds, why should he react like it's an attack? The fast pace in saying "why? a little.. why?"... This is just perfect acting. And something I always wondered, when he says "that's between me and my doctor", who was his doctor? Probably not someone we were supposed to know, but someone must have prescribed pain meds for him. For quite some time... With what kind of follow up? Didn't that doctor screw up a bit?
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Post by claired80 on Apr 15, 2011 12:03:29 GMT -5
I guess I always watched ER too much with Carter's point of view in mind only . I know Kerry and Mark truly care about Carter, but I still find their way of showing it not... clear enough . Ah, Benton Backwards ;D another great episode... Another example of great acting and tiny touch that makes all perfect: when Carter says "you won't get her back! she blew her brains out" (or something close... ), he is speaking quite loud, probably because he was deafened by the blast so close to him. What that even scripted? That scene is really creepy, with Carter leaving the room with this girl's brains splattered on his coat and face... I love the scene with Gamma later on. Awkward seeing Carter hitting the punching bag, and nice touch. That's probably something that was showed to him as a good diversion means... And how hurting it must be to hear Gamma say "I wish I could believe you... " And you can tell Carter can't stand to worry her... The fact that he throws his gloves away is awkward also, and I can't really tell what he is angry at. Not at Gamma I guess. At himself for putting her through that much worries?
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Post by darksparrow on Apr 15, 2011 13:25:06 GMT -5
I know it comes with the job, but it just seemed ironic to me, that timing for Carter's depressing story arc... It really didn't seem like they knew where it all started. Put yourself in Carter's shoes- to someone in that state of mind, which interpretation do you think is more likely? How could it possibly be percieved as anything BUT a threat, if their suspicions were right? I agree that the focus on the drugs was a bit of an overreaction, actually--- it seems to me that the drug use was secondary here, I'd be much more concerned about the state of mind that leads a person like Carter down that path, not to mention the flashbacks and obvious symptoms of mental trouble. Basically what I'm saying is that the idea to 'get him some help' was in the right direction. Now, what kind of help can they really offer Carter? They can give him a referral to a health professional; but as he's already proven, they can't make him seek help. If he can't help himself, the only thing they really can do is to put him in a position where he has no other choice. The way it seems to me, the point was to get him into a setting where he would be forced to get treatment. The drug thing may or may not be important but by forcing him into rehab they're forcing him into a structured form of THERAPY which is exactly what he needs. As for the track marks... If he shot up that morning, there would be a mark on his wrist. Even if it's a one-time thing. That was an IV injection, and when I have my blood taken you can see the mark for days afterwards even if the stick was excellent. And I'm not sure if it was a one time thing. The time line is wrong, see. He didn't steal the drug because he was pushed off the gurney, he stole it BEFORE... Add that to his retelling of the story to Chase in season 7 ("I started using morphine, and everything else I could get my hands on...") and the picture that emerges is quite different from 'slightly overusing his prescribed pain medication' . I love that they made sure Kerry talked to the legal department to find out what their options were... Legally speaking? they probably couldn't fire him. She said so herself, they needed more evidence. But it seems to me that when you literally CORNER someone like this and rattle him the way they did, that person won't be sure of what you can and can't PROVE. It becomes a "go ahead, prove us wrong" scenario, which they COULD win, as opposed to "we can prove you wrong in court" which they COULDN'T win. Speaking of that scene where Kerry and Mark discuss what to do about Carter... I'm also curious about Kerry's comment, when Mark confirms that Carter can't treat patients- "we have to be careful, it's ONE accusation". That can be understood as "that's only one accusation and if we threaten him based on that information, he might sue us to hell and back", and as "that's one hell of an accusation, we can't let him treat patients if it's true." Yup, that was really beautifully done. The entire scene was great. He's so clearly lying, and he's so bad at it, it's almost as if he wants to get caught. Noah really is teriffic in scenes where he has to say one thing and communicate another with his eye or body language. It's like he can speak three languages at the same time, or something. ETA: oh no, you are NOT getting me to watch Benton Backwards now...
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Post by claired80 on Apr 15, 2011 14:10:19 GMT -5
As for the track marks... If he shot up that morning, there would be a mark on his wrist. Even if it's a one-time thing. That was an IV injection, and when I have my blood taken you can see the mark for days afterwards even if the stick was excellent. And I'm not sure if it was a one time thing. The time line is wrong, see. He didn't steal the drug because he was pushed off the gurney, he stole it BEFORE... Add that to his retelling of the story to Chase in season 7 ("I started using morphine, and everything else I could get my hands on...") and the picture that emerges is quite different from 'slightly overusing his prescribed pain medication' . Yeah, that was my point. There would obviously be the track mark of the morning under his watch. If it was only that, he could hide it under his watch. But he couldn't have used only one vein over and over again if he had been shooting up several times a day, as he made it sound later, to Chase for instance, as you said. And he didn't hesitate to roll up his sleeves, knowing there was nothing there. There's something off here... TV show vs. reality I guess... (or we are supposed to imagine he was using veins on his feet or somewhere... ) And yep, there's a clear close up on Carter putting the syringe in his pocket before trying the hip reduction. It's made clear that he was planning to keep that for later. And falling off the gurney is just what made him use it where it wasn't safe to do so. I like how he bangs his head on the wall once Abby leaves the room, and saying "stupid" to himself (what I can read on his lips at least... ). By the way, in season 15, he is shown in front of the same sink, cleaning his shirt from his blood from the shunt 'oozing a bit'. I guess that wasn't on purpose, but maybe it was...(seeing the cut scene with Banfield where they are mentioning the 'addiction' makes me think it could have been on purpose). I like to imagine that it was . Yep, he has an amazing ability at putting many layers on his acting ;D Oh I'm not. I will... shut up now
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matineeidyll
New Member
The Monster At The End Of This Book
Posts: 40
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Post by matineeidyll on Apr 15, 2011 18:26:54 GMT -5
The climactic intervention in May Day felt, to me, rather rushed, like they'd run out of time to explore this storyline within the constraints of season six and just shoved a lot into the last episode. Don't get me wrong, it was a great way to end the season, with the shot of a defeated Carter on a plane. The acting, too, was superb. As for the track marks... If he shot up that morning, there would be a mark on his wrist. Even if it's a one-time thing. That was an IV injection, and when I have my blood taken you can see the mark for days afterwards even if the stick was excellent. And I'm not sure if it was a one time thing. That may have been the first time he'd injected Fentanyl into his wrist at work and thought to inject where the band of his watch would conceal it. There are numerous other injection sites on the body for many forms of pain medication. Addicts are cunning. I've known of users who have injected into their thingyes!
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Post by darksparrow on Apr 17, 2011 7:50:13 GMT -5
The short haircut (which can be seen in the season 13 Africa episodes, for example) is exactly what you think it is: a result of Noah letting his son play hairdresser. I tend to imagine that it was that haircut that made the Hat of Doom necessary (and then it just sort of stuck around to shock us every now and then). I don't exactly HATE it, but it just looks strange... and I prefer my men with longer hair.
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